That feels like a mind-blowingly ignorant sort of thing to say. What if I decide I find the right to bear arms to be wrong and gross and say the same thing? Or whatever else you happen to believe to be a right.

Homosexuality isn't a right its a life choice. I do however have a right to the opinion that 2 dudes having sex is gross, and the opinion that it's morally wrong.
However, I don't have the right the force my opinions on others.

Although you have a right to an opinion, it doesn't necessarily means you have the right to insult an entire group of people for their choice at any place in the world or the Internet, without any consequence. Well... in the world you can, but you'll probably be beaten up if you dare to say that to a gay person who is in couple. Online, you will simply end up either getting away with it or getting banned.

He does have the right to his opinion, no matter how disagreeable or ignorant or hateful as it is, and to voice it without fear of physical harm in a free society. Censorship in the real world cannot ever lead to good things, even if it is censorship in good-will.

but, I have the same rights to speech he has and can say my opinion is that his opinion is ignorant and wrong.

honestly, at this point, I believe you can have whatever hateful opinion you want so long as you realize you can't and shouldn't force it on others.

Romans 1:26-28
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

So apparently, if I'm not into guys having sex, then I'm ignorant. That makes plenty of sense.
I'm not condemning anyone. To me, its gross and wrong, but that's my opinion. I'm not forcing it on anyone or pointing at people screaming "You're gonna go to hell!".
If you wanna get married, fine by me, I couldn't care less. But got to remember that not everyone is that flexible, and you can't expect them to go against their morals just because you want a meaningless piece of paper. If the pastor or justice of peace is fine with it, then congratulations

Merth, thanks for sharing the Matthew Vines and Greg Boyd links. There really shouldn't be any more discussion in this thread from people citing scripture until they've watched those lectures.


Qazz: I'm glad to hear we're on the same page with the civil union/marriage thing now. Welcome to the cool-kids club. I should point out though that there are a couple passages other than Leviticus dealing with homosexuality, and the New Testament ones are probably more important to most Christians than anything in Jewish law.

it's all you and Ryan's fault for introducing me to the perks of libertarianism. Good to know I'm a cool person now

that aside, I've always figured that the passages from the New Testament, mainly the one Roguebantha quotes, were generally quotes with disputed and vague meanings through all the different translations and interpretations.

and there is the entire argument of the writers of said quotes, like Paul, being 1. culturally bound 2. not referring to what we think they're referring to (some argue Paul was just refering to pagans and nonbelievers )and 3. not Jesus, so they can be happily ignored without consequence or fear.

course, I'm no expert so I'll wait to see what elfprince, who knows much more about it than I, has to say.

The texts in the New Testament are somewhat disputed, but generally agreed to refer to some kind of homosexual behavior. A good summary of the arguments both ways is here and unfortunately I'm not Greek-scholar enough to be able to weigh in. I'd like to accept the revisionist/pro-homosexual interpretation, but I still haven't heard convincing arguments either way, so I revert to the position described here (that Merth linked to above) as a sane default.

[edit]

I wanted to add that very few people would share your opinion that rejecting Paul's writings is the right way to handle it.

I didn't quote any scripture....

Don't be a stuck-up idiot. You can attempt to bring people to christ by peaceful means, but forcing them to is no way to do it. Columbus was bad enough with that- we don't need *more* anti-whatever christians.

Christian, jewish, buddhist, whatever. You can't convert someone over the internet. If anything, this is perhaps the worst place. I'm not calling everyone here a bunch of devil worshippers here, lol, but generally geeks such as us tend to argue the existence of god a little more than others, overspeculate, and know how to make google our bitch.
In the end, no matter where the topic is created, it always turns into a flame war over the existence of god and everyone leaves the conversation super pissed.

ah well, fair enough. I still choose to look on the bright side and take the assumption where it's a vague and disputed quote whose literally meaning at face-value doesn't apply for a variety of reasons.

but that's just me. Doesn't matter to me too much since I'm a le brave atheist.


edit: In all, I'm in the libertarian position. Do what you want, not my issue. Though I will say I'm admittantly more left leaning on the LGBT issues.

I'm not for homosexuals.
I'm not against them, but against what they do(love each other, lust after each other and of course having sex). (In the same manner that I don't agree with divorce and remarriage, masturbation, ...)
The main reason for this is because I'm a Christian, and it is clearly noted in the Bible that it is wrong.
Other reasons are that I find it unnatural in the way that you cannot reproduce, or that it gives much higher chances than straight people to get infections on some specific parts, and of course because they have the most chance to get infected with HIV:Proof.

I also believe that that last thing I mentioned is a sign from God to show that it really should not be practised.
I know, straight people get it too. Reasons therefore, I believe may be mainly due to wrong usage of "certain parts"(And is therefore also the reason why gay people spread it a lot easier).

You may say, let them do what they want. It's their problem.
That is true, and I don't think I would, and should physically intervene with a gay couple(like, trying to keep them away from each other), but I probably would say something to them.

People keep on saying it is natural, because they were born that way: The answer is Yes and No.
Certain people, try out "being gay", and like it and stick to it. Others say they had it since they were born.
I highly doubt that when you're under a certain age, you're going to feel certain desires. Here's what God says, after the flood:

Genesis 8:21
"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

It is clear, that even from youth we are evil, but that doesn't mean we mustn't do anything about it or not abstain from those things.
For example, I think lust for a woman, can come naturally. But that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong and immoral. So, even though it comes naturally, since I'm born evil, I still have to abstain from that.
I know you can abstain from it, so I also believe it to be possible to abstain from homosexuality. You definitely, still have a choice.

People many times say: "God is love. He loves the sinner too, etc...".
But it is clear in the Bible that he isn't so "loving", to not put them in hell. When God puts you in Hell, he hates you, and will have nothing to do with you any more. So it is very important, to become free from sin, before it is too late, because many die unexpected.
I know many here may not believe in God, but say he does exist, you will most likely go to Hell. I think it something very serious to consider, because it may have else have terrible consequences for you.

So that is why. It's my beliefs, and I hope it may have given you room for though.
I don't hate gays, just to clarify.

That's an incredibly stupid reason and you should feel stupid for saying it. The Bible says lots of idiotic crap, especially the Old Testament which is filled with things that are unquestionably evil (rape, murder, slavery, etc...).

First of all, that's pretty offensive.
And second of all, you made yourself pretty ridiculous with those arguments.
Does it mean that if a movie features a bad guy, that the good guy becomes evil as well?
Since the Bible clearly notes that those things are wrong(rape, murder, slavery). Although God himself, sometimes allowed murder(that is, when he specifically asked it), but that's it.

Why do people still post in this thread?

I haven't a clue.

Here's a thought, let them get married. Want to know why?

Now that they are a couple, their overall household income just went up. Now they are in a higher paying tax bracket, so the government gets more money from them.

Let them enjoy the same 'benefits' that straight married couples do!

And if they are married, do you think that STDs/STIs are magically going to infect them and other people around them?


That is in fact a pretty harsh 'response' with some pretty obvious flaws. You basically have said that if any part of the bible is wrong (in the moral sense), then the rest of it is wrong. So let's look at our legal system and laws. There are some pretty ridiculous/stupid laws, so does that mean that anybody that prefers to uphold laws like not murdering or stealing are stupid for holding those beliefs?
(An obvious counter argument to this is anticipated, by the way.)

Now, my question toward Stefan and those that hold similar beliefs: If a marriage were based on affection and feelings between two people as opposed to sex, would your argument still hold weight? Your views that don't rely on the Bible seem to be fixated on the likelihood of spreading disease through sex and engaging in sex for reasons other than procreation. If somebody is not engaging in sex in their marriage, would you still consider it wrong or would you simply consider it not a marriage? And if you consider it not a marriage, is it because they are not procreating? If that is the case, what if the couple happens to be infertile? Then does it matter either way if they engage in sex, or should they make fruitless attempts at procreation, since they shouldn't be making love for their own pleasure?

To open up another can of worms, what are thoughts on relationships between transgender or transsexual people? For example, if a transwoman (somebody born with a male body that identifies as female or has had appropriate surgery and treatment to be physically female) and a cis-woman (somebody born with a female body and identifies as female) get married, do you think that that is wrong, or if a transman and a cis-male marry? And what about a transman and a transwoman? And what of those outside the gender binary? And if you saw two fairly masculine individuals holding hands, would you immediately judge that their relationship was wrong, or two feminine individuals, or two androgynous individuals? If you judge a relationship by their respective copulatory organs, what if it turns out that they are compatible for procreation? Would you be upset because their gender display was incongruent with their sex? If so, I would like to point out that gender display keeps changing. High heels were invented for men to display their calves in a more appealing way. Using makeup has been more based on social class as opposed to gender, but class boundaries have started to be broken down. Pink was considered a masculine color, blue was considered a soft, feminine color.

Meh, I am rambling at this point .__.

If a male changes to a woman, he's still a male to me(and to God).
You can never truly change who you are. Therefore, when a person changes his vital parts, I already don't agree, since afaik you cannot use them, because you are of the opposite gender anyway.
So, if a person, who was born male, decides to marry another person, who was born female, I think it's a good thing.(But if they changed gender, I think they should change back).
(Intersex people, ofcourse is something else, and I'm not talking about those. I am not talking about exceptions).

No, Xeda, if a marriage between two people of the same gender takes place, even if they don't have sex, I'm still against it.
I don't even care if they marry or not, since I personally don't acknowledge same-sex marriages. (For example, I'm sure that God would allow "divorce and remarriage" in this case, since it's not a real marriage in his eyes as well).

The thing is, the loving/lusting part is the evil thing for God.
(For he who looks in lust at someone has committed adultery in his heart).

No, I don't immediately judge people. Although if the outward appearance is so great, I may guess that they are gay.

As I said, Xeda. My MAIN reason is the Bible, and since it's clearly displayed as something evil and sin, I must be against it.

EDIT:Maybe it wasn't clear, but I'm not really going to try to stop them marrying or anything. All, I have to do I say it. If they decide to deny God, they can be responsible.